1984 Interview with Ted Bundy about the Green River Killer

On my Internet Archive channel I’ve uploaded an audio file: Chapters 11 and 12 from the audiobook  "Chasing the devil: my twenty-year quest to capture the Green River killer" by David Reichert. Here is the direct link to the audio file: https://archive.org/details/1984-interview-with-ted-bundy-about-the-green-river-killer

Reichert’s audiobook is about his  experience pursuing the “Green River killer” from the first victim in 1982 until Ridgway's confession in 2001, and the investigative ideas he developed to track down Ridgway. Ridgway cruised for prostitutes in the early 1980s on a section of the Pacific Coast Highway called “the strip.” He was dubbed the Green River killer because the bodies of several of his victims in the early 1980s were found in or near the river, which runs through south King County.

The narrator (actor Dennis Bousikaris) can be heard reading from Reichert’s book, and saying how Reichert and Robert Keppel went to Florida to consult with Ted Bundy about the “Riverman” (Gary Ridgway), and you’ll also hear an excerpt from Reichert’s November 17^th, 1984 conversation with Bundy. Bundy can be heard speculating that the “Riverman” was probably growing more self-confident the longer Reichert couldn't find him.

Necrophilia was involved in Ridgway’s case, and Reichert thought it was involved in Bundy’s case too, although Reichert himself acknowledged that Bundy avoided saying anything directly about this when talking about the “Riverman” and referred to a "fatal link between sex and violence" in the Green River case (which led Reichert to speculate that Bundy might have been a necrophiliac too)... The narrator (reading from Reichert’s book): “Although Ted was eager to discuss the Riverman’s stalking and killing, no doubt he got vicarious pleasure from this, he was more evasive when it came to events that might transpire after a victim’s death. We knew that Bundy was a true necrophiliac who had gone back to the places where he’d left bodies to rape the rotting corpses, in fact you can argue that he had killed women for the sole purpose of having an object to exploit sexually... this is common behavior for serial killers: they want total control and are excited by the hunt, but often have trouble performing sexually with a live woman. One of Bundy’s few apparently normal psychological responses was his shame about raping dead bodies. He carefully avoided saying anything directly about this, but we eventually got him to admit there was a ‘fatal link between sex and violence’ in the Green River case”. Added to his earlier observations about how the killer would invariably go back to visit the bodies he had hidden, these statements suggested that we might actually catch the killer at one of the dump sites... This was what Bundy had in mind when he suggested that we might want to hold off any public announcement about the next body we discovered, especially if it was not yet decomposed. If, instead, we established very unobtrusive surveillance, the killer might actually come to us... [...] ‘I know the instincts that the police system moves in’, he said. ‘Everybody is called in and scours the site. The explorer scouts crawl on their hands and knees and this has always fascinated me, and appalled me because as I said... if they’d only waited, they’d have found somebody! The guy would have come right up to them’... Bundy was saying that the sexual lure of the body was too much for him to resist.” The narrator/Reichert then goes on to say that Bundy’s other suggestions also depended on exploiting the killer’s sexual interests (violent pornography, slasher movies, snuff films, in which it appeared that someone is killed on camera)...

So Reichert inferred from Bundy’s suggestions that Bundy himself may have been a necrophiliac (questionable analysis).

Reichert also speculated about behaviors common among serial killers and said that having trouble performing sexually with a live woman was common behavior for serial killers (although in Bundy's case, there is no evidence of this, but rather the opposite)...

The narrator/Reichert can also be heard speculating that by inviting the cops to interview him, Bundy had used them to get some relief from the prison routine and to make himself feel important and was also trying to delay his own execution by demonstrating that he had some value to the society that would be lost upon his death.

Throughout the audiobook, demonic epithets such as “devil” and “monsters” were ascribed by Reichert to men like Bundy and Ridgway, unfortunately, presumably to convey their “demonic nature”...

And here is the transcript of Bundy’s November 17, 1984 exchange with Reichert which can he heard on tape:

Ted Bundy: For some reason, he is running off Seattle victims in a much different way than he is running off his South victims...

David Reichert: Do you have any speculation as to why he may be doing that?

Ted Bundy: Well, first of all, there’s no good place... he’s trying to dispose of bodies where they won’t be found. This guy doesn’t want to get caught. I think he doesn’t want these bodies found. I think it’s clear that over time, at least it would appear, over time he’s trying to improve his dumpsites... and he’s trying to get better at disposing of bodies, generally speaking. Now, we can all say, he’s really clumsy, I would have done it this way, but who knows, under his mental apparatus, what he thinks is effective and what isn’t... But I think as far as the downtown Seattle approach, there’s obviously no place close by to dump them... Pacific Highway South he’s got all this stuff within driving distance and I think it appears to me... my guess would be... that they’re dying shortly after he picks them up. ‘Cos he’s not going far with them. I’m making a real off the cuff guess.

David Reichert: One of the things I’d take a guess to is that almost all of them are exclusively car date prostitutes... they’re not the type that had a motel room or take somebody back to your home... they sell themselves at the car...

Ted Bundy: Sure... I was going to ask what they were doing... were they plying their trade on the streets or inside establishments... were they standing on the street...

David Reichert: Standing on the street...

Ted Bundy: He’s not taking them in the car. He’s not picking them up... it’s hard to say. It’s all speculation. I’m sure you’ve gone over this a thousand times... but as far as downtown Seattle, there’s obviously no good close site... where he can just drop them off so he’s got to go somewhere so he gets on Interstate 5 and he’s driving down 5 and he could just as easily drop off here as he did with Wims but it’s just as likely he heads south and drops off Pitsor here and Colleen Brockman here and east on 90 and dropped off Agisheff here and Yates here... and also the other two victims, 25 and 16 in that same general vicinity. And of course, Snoqualmie and Interstate 90 in that area have gotten somewhat of a reputation you know... for that kind of activity and perhaps that is what attracted him there. 20,27, both Seattle and both way out there and I bet you... looking back... they’re toward the tail end of 1983... one in September and one in October... about the time... you found several bodies that summer... and I bet you he was getting nervous... god damn they’re starting to find my bodies again... excuse me, it’s kind of fascinating to watch this unfold and I’m probably running ahead of myself... I’m confusing you two with asking questions... but just looking at how this unfolded I see here by the dates that ugh you found these first five really quickly... Coffield, Chapman, and Hinds, and Mills... I’m looking and you can see he changes... he’s saying, “obviously I’m not going to use that Green River again... at least not for a while,” ...and he’s looking for something that’s more effective so he goes back to dry land... look at number 6... he’d been on dry land with an intermediate victim, actually she was in between and went back to dry land with some of these other victims. Yeah... Mills is in here. And Lovvorn was found in September but still he sticks to these sites and I’ve got it more deliberately analyzed in my notes here... what I’m saying is that between September ‘82 and May of ‘83 you didn’t find any bodies... so in his mind he was effective... and he got how many in that period... he got... between September and... I would say, starting with Kasee Ann Lee, which is not... you never found her again... But Terry R. Milligan, Salt Lake Road, and Mary Meehan... You didn’t find a body for seven, eight months, anywhere, and this guy is starting to get bold again... “I finally found the ticket you know, they’re not finding my bodies”... and uh, you didn’t find [unintelligible: Christensen? or Brockman?] until May... and this guy he’d changed his tactic...

David Reichert: You say he’s continuing to kill... He’s still in the Seattle area... And we found these locations out here... what’d you think his next step would be?

Ted Bundy: To go with what’s working... You know, he moved up east of Enumclaw and he’s going deeper in the mountains... he’s trying something new, something different. You found three east of Enumclaw, you’ll find he probably won’t be going up there anymore assuming he was going there, obviously he was up there for a time and I’ll bet you’ll find more up there... at least in my opinion, four or five more should be up there.

David Reichert: You think he’ll go further east then, on I-90...

Ted Bundy: He’s got the whole... who knows... this guy is learning... he’s trying to find the best way to dispose of his bodies as he can think of. Up to now, he’s been hiding... he’s been dumping or burying them, or I don’t know, a combination of the two... but God forbid someday he decides... he finds a secluded well somewhere that he starts dumping them all down the well and... or some other effective way or burying them in the basement like John Wayne Gacy... because well, quite frankly, I think you have a chance to catch him if you can start finding his next bodies... and I’ll get into that later... ummm... yeah he’s... I’m sure for a time after in late ’83 that the discoveries, let’s see... you found three bodies, in October ’83, umm... and that bothered the hell out of him I’m sure... you found Antosh, Naon and unidentified bones... that would have been 10, 11, 12 on this list... 11 and 12 were south of the airport, 10 was over here by Green River. So I’m sure he’s getting a little edgy about leaving any more bodies around over here... and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that your next body in chronological order is... there is no doubt there are bodies you haven’t discovered but it’s your early victims you haven’t found... Kasee Ann Lee, Bush, Estes... this guy may not select his dump sites with the precision of a geographer’s surveyor but it’s clear that it’s something that... places he’s searched out and looked over in the daytime and the night time. But he’s been back to them many times after... obviously. He’s been back to them many times.